Pulling left: Rear wheel alignment problem.....

[pcous]

Hi all,

Our 2007 Alphard has been pulling left regardless of road camber. Standard wheel alignment / new tyres have made no difference and I was advised to seek 4-wheel alignment - although the rear axle is fixed and rear wheels cannot be adjusted... The results were interesting - NSR toe is 0˚05' [OK]; OSR toe is -0˚38' [definitely not OK]. So, as I understand it the OSR is toeing out, which I'm told is causing the vehicle overall to pull left (because the rear is heading right). I'm told there's no play in the rear bushes and everything looks fine. So, before considering getting the rear axle replaced (which I'm obviously not keen on) I wondered if anyone else has experienced a similar problem and whether there's any way of compensating for this. All ideas welcome...

Regards,

pcous

[Catweazle]

I've just noticed this on my car too....

Not bothered to do anything just yet, as it's not dramatic, but does get tiresome over a longer drive.

[Rojie]

Coincidently, I notice a small pull to the left just today !

 

I was thinking I may need the tracking looked at; as, I believe, the rear bushes, etc, were replaced before I bought the Alphie.

How well the rear end work was done I don't know.  

 

I'll be following this thread........

 

 

[starider]

Hi, probably not a problem solver, but many years ago when in the motor trade we had a similar problem with a large car,we spent a day trying to cure the problem steering geometry,play in the various suspension components, tyre pressures, all to no avail, then in desperstion we swapped wheels and tyres to the opposite sides and hey presto problem cured, we never found out why it worked but it did! It may be worth a try.

[ThuMentaliss]

not to be annoying have you got directional tyres fitted?

[pcous]

Thanks all for your replies. The 4-wheel alignment shows OSR toe-out -0˚38' and the rear total toe -0˚33', whereas both NSR & OSR are supposed to toe-in. So, the alignment figures suggest that the rear axle isn't completely straight and there's no means of adjustment of course, because it's a fixed axle. Alignment figures are from gauges fixed to the wheels when stationery on the ramp, so this would suggest that the tyres can't be the simple cause of the problem (wish they were...) That said, there's no indication that the tyres are directional, so I could try swapping rear wheels to see if a different configuration might at least compensate/reduce the effect to some extent.

For information, these are the Alignment specs I was referred to:
MALAYSIA: TOYOTA ALPHARD MPV(2002 - 2007)
Parameter MIN MAX
Front Total Toe -0.11 0.11
FL Toe -0.06 0.06
FR Toe -0.06 0.06
FL Camber -0.41 1.25
FR Camber -0.41 1.25
Rear Total Toe 0.1 0.26
RL Toe 0.05 0.13
RR Toe 0.05 0.13
RL Camber -1.5 -0.58
RR Camber -1.5 -0.58
Left Caster 2.08 3.58
Right Caster 2.08 3.58

[pcous]

Hi all,

 

Still struggling to find the reason for significant steering pull to the left. I've found alternative alignment specs (see below) at:

http://www.jltechno.com/en/alignment_specs.php?brand=Toyota&ModelName=Alphard/Vellfire:H10 Series:MNH10W&ModelID=610365

I've been told that the OSR toe-out could cause a drift in steering, but not a consistent pull. So the focus now is on the front. Revisiting the alignment printout I see it shows negative caster, whereas the spec says it should be positive, so this is the next thing to investigate - front coil springs were changed in the past, so could this be a possible cause of the alignment shifting...?

If anyone has any experience of this then I'd welcome your thoughts.

Regards,

Pcous

 

 

Alignment Data Lookup->Toyota->Alphard/Vellfire:H10 Series:MNH10W

 

Alignment Specs

Parameter	MIN spec	Standard spec	MAX spec
Front Total Toe	-0.17		0.17
FL Toe	-0.09		0.09
FR Toe	-0.09		0.09
FL Camber	-1.42		0.08
FR Camber	-1.42		0.08
Rear Total Toe	-0.25		0.25
RL Toe	-0.13		0.13
RR Toe	-0.13		0.13
RL Camber	-2		-1
RR Camber	-2		-1
Left Caster	1.67		3.17
Right Caster	1.67		3.17
Left SAI	N/A		N/A
Right SAI	0		0

There are significant differences, so if anyone relied on the earlier figures for alignment, can I suggest you check them again?

[ThuMentaliss]

Interestedly, I once owned an ex demo Rover 75 fully loaded (lovely car) after some months of owning it,  I noticed it would drift to the left..I hand all the usual geometry checks carried out by the dealer nothing really found,  some time later I read in a trade magazine article about this problem they recommended that you swapped the tyre from the N/S/F wheel and fitted it to the N/S/R wheel (same direction but slight load difference)... two days later the problem disappeared

[starider]

Kerr ching!!

[pcous]

Hi all,

Update: So it looks like there were 2 interacting problems, which have taken a long time to get to the bottom of.

 

The offside rear toe-out (fixed axle, so obviously shouldn't toe-out) appears to have been due to a poorly assembled wheel bearing retainer - 2 of the 4 nuts were missing (nowhere to be seen I was told by our mechanic, but not in the hub, where they would have been if they had worked loose / sheared off), so the leading edge of the wheel was facing slightly outwards; not enough to notice initially, but gradually getting worse! There's been no work on the wheel hubs since being imported, so it seems this was a longstanding problem inherited from the Japanese owner, or possibly even from leaving the factory...

 

The second problem, negative caster, related to incorrect positioning of the front coil springs when they were re-fitted (here in the UK). I've been told that negative caster (springs & shock absorbers facing slightly towards the rear of the vehicle at the base) was a general feature of old cars before power steering, designed to counteract the natural effect of steering becoming heavier with speed. Trouble is, in a more modern vehicle, particularly with the extra weight of campervan furniture in the back, lighter steering on the motorway isn't what you need....  Have also swapped the wheels from left to right on each axle, so we'll see how the jalopy fares on the next long run!

 

Meanwhile, I was given yet another set of wheel alignment figures for Gen 1 Alphard MNH10W; this time by our specialist, found on their computer search of Japanese data. These differ from the JLTechno internet figures, so I've included them below - broadly they are a more extensive set of figures, but they show a smaller tolerance range for toe and front camber:

 

Toyota->Alphard H10 Series:MNH10W

 

Wheel Alignment Specification

Parameter	Minimum		Maximum
Front Total Toe	-0.10		+0.10
FL Toe	-0.05		+0.05
FR Toe	-0.05		+0.05
FL Camber	-1.25		+0.05
FR Camber	-1.25		+0.05
FL Caster	+1.40		+3.10
FR Caster	+1.40		+3.10
FL SAI	+10.05		+11.35
FR SAI	+10.05		+11.35
FL Included Angle FR Included Angle Front Cross Camber	+8.40 +8.40 -0.45		+11.40 +11.40 +0.45
Front Cross Caster	-0.45		+0.45
Rear Total Toe	-0.15		+0.15
RL Toe	-0.08		+0.08
RR Toe	-0.08		+0.08
RL Camber	-2.0		-1.0
RR Camber	-2.0		-1.0

 

[David Jones]

Having a mare. Rear and front tyre wear uneven. Trying to get a mechanic who can solve problem is hard. Front wheel alignment can’t be done before rear wheels are correct. Went back to Alphard dealer I bought the car from. He couldn’t give a 💩 realed off local garages list. But these garages don’t know how to solve problem or refuse to do it. Local Toyota dealer helpful in getting spares. But not helpful with mechanical problems as it’s an import. They make it sound as if the car was smuggled into the UK. I’ll give the wheel swop a go. 

[David Jones]

New disc brakes all round and new tyres. Check wheel alignment insignificant. No veering or drift noted by new garage. Possibly last garage just trying to get more £ who knows?  Service and MOT went well just one rusty front break pin to replace.