E10 Fuel compatibility.

[nov]

On 9/19/2021 at 2:26 PM, Adrian Smith said:

I have a 2.4 alphard and find that with e10 fuel the mpg is severely affected so is the power and the engine seems noisier ( probably pinking) using e5 now at a premium it’s perfect again . Has anyone else noticed this .

 

I have 2.4 as well and I think the engine is a bit noiser on E10 (so far I did over 1000 miles on E10). There is definitely a difference and I believe it should be as at the end fuel consistency is different. 

 

We could find a lot of pros and cons for each type of the fuel however I'm sure the main question is... is it safe to use or not. 

 

Found this video interesting as fuels were tested under heavy load

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by nov

[Rojie]

Yet another helpful video. reassuring too.

 

Firstly let me say I have watched a lot of videos by this guy; I rate him VERY highly.

 

Secondly, unfortunately the study was done in 1981.

(I previously published a study by NREL that looked at a Camry 1MZ 2FE as fitted to the 3 litre V6 Alphards (until the mk 2 version in 2008).

The NREL study was much more recent (late 90's from memory).

 

In exploring the E10 issues there seem to be two main concerns.

Does E10 damage your engine ?

Does E10 damage your fuel system ?

 

Despite reading many differing opinions, and I am not asserting any of them are wrong, I have not seen any empirical evidence, yet, that E10 is damaging to non direct fuel injected vehicles. The 2002 to 2008 1mz FE engine is multi point fuel injected. The NREL study shows photos of the injectors.

 

Therefore, we all seem to be faced with the decision to run E10 (and risk it) or run E5 and pay (in my area) a 10 percent premium to minimise the risks of E10 ; IF there are any.

 

What am I going to do ?

 

I will run E5 initially.

 

WHY ?

 

Because our Alphies are all imports, and not officially supported by Toyota UK, there are some questions about part availability.

With all due respect to Murphy, he states that the one part I would need (especially in the fuel line) would not, imho, be easily or cheaply available.

 

A year is a long time to wait, especially if your Alphie is your daily runner, mine isn't.

 

Trust to our judgement, and good luck to us all.

 

 

 

 

[Rojie]

Magnum Motors of Farnborough have recently put up a video on youtube featuring a 2007 2.4 litre Alphard.

 

In the commentary the host mentions that (not a quote) there should be no problems with the new fuel (E10).

 

 

[Taffy6]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:32 AM, Rojie said:

There are some interesting facts emerging about this fuel debate.

 

I strongly advise any Alphie users to watch the videos on youtube by "cuttothechase" regarding his ODB data.

 

Among other things it does explain why some Alphies are (initially) running quite rough on E10.

 

He advocates using E5; so watch his videos to find out why !

Put first bit of uk fuel in today and my vellfire is idling terrible. Went for the 97 over 95. Nightmare

[Rojie]

21 minutes ago, Taffy6 said:

Put first bit of uk fuel in today and my vellfire is idling terrible. Went for the 97 over 95. Nightmare

 

Not good news. Have you watched the Cuttothechase video. It may reassure you somewhat ?

Did you fill the tank? If not, I suppose you can 'dilute' the E10 by filling up with E5.

I expect in the next few weeks we will get lots of feedback from users of E10.

[Taffy6]

4 minutes ago, Rojie said:

 

Not good news. Have you watched the Cuttothechase video. It may reassure you somewhat ?

Did you fill the tank? If not, I suppose you can 'dilute' the E10 by filling up with E5.

I expect in the next few weeks we will get lots of feedback from users of E10.

No not yet. Didnt put a full tank in only £20. Hopefully the car gets used to it. The mechanic at the MOT station even noticed how bad it was vibrating and ticking over. Going to have to do some research. 

[nov]

Just wondering if Wynns E10 Protector would help here?

 

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/fuel-and-oil-additives/wynns-specialist-e10-protector-multi-shot-581494.html

[Rojie]

1 hour ago, Taffy6 said:

No not yet. Didnt put a full tank in only £20. Hopefully the car gets used to it. The mechanic at the MOT station even noticed how bad it was vibrating and ticking over. Going to have to do some research. 

 

Could it be anything else? 

Where I live we have had a dramatic change in the weather !

[Taffy6]

Definitely the fuel, as was perfect until I put the 97 in. I'll try and find some 99 if I can. 

[Geoff]

Hi All.

I'm new to the Alphard Club, & will be taking delivery of a 2005 Alphard, with 3.0L Lexus/Camry Engine. Am i right in saying & what i hear here, is that the new E5 Premium Unleaded is good for this engine & is recommended. 

Thanks for your replies in advance 

[Rojie]

Hi Geoff,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

E5 is not a new fuel !

It is E10 that is the new fuel.

 

E5 is (now) what was known as Super Unleaded.

 

At the petrol station the fuels type, E5 or E10, must be displayed clearly on the pump.

 

There is a (lengthy) ongoing debate on this Forum as to which fuel to use.

 

At the end of the day, we all have our views, it is each owner that has to make the decision.

For grey import Alphards, Toyota (UK) has not proved helpful at all on this issue.

 

As above, there are some reports emerging that (some) Alphies do not perform well on E10.

[nov]

17 minutes ago, Geoff said:

Hi All.

I'm new to the Alphard Club, & will be taking delivery of a 2005 Alphard, with 3.0L Lexus/Camry Engine. Am i right in saying & what i hear here, is that the new E5 Premium Unleaded is good for this engine & is recommended. 

Thanks for your replies in advance 

 

3.0 Alphards should use Super Premium Unleaded 97/98RON, however there are some members here with 3.0 running on E5 Premium Unleaded (old standard Unleaded 94/95RON). 

 

[Geoff]

Thanks for the info NOV. 

Any one else provide any additional info?

[Andrew]

I think Taffy6 you may need to look into other possible issues with your car,

97fuel is super unleaded which is still E5 so it should be fine and even when using E10 it shouldn't cause an instant problem.

But you can certainly tell the difference in performance when using 99 compared to 97 or 95. (you can get Shell V-power 99 if you want to be super safe)

 

I think people are getting into their heads that E10 will instantly damage the fuel system and engine, if used all the time over a long period then some issues may occur but I think if you're just putting £10-£20 in then you should be fine and can always add 97 or 99 fuel at a later time or use Wynns e10 protector which I mentioned a while ago in a different topic about e10 fuel.

 

What I'm expecting to see is someone to start offering replacement fuel lines/ seals for older vehicles, get new updated ones in your vehicle so it can run safely on e10 fuel.

[Walshie]

On 8/8/2021 at 4:30 PM, PatKG said:

Our alphard is a japanese import, not a European model.  Does anyone know if this makes any difference? It's 2006 (2990cc)

All Alphards are Jap imports my friend

[Geralt]

Anyone looking for a some reassurance that their Alphard will probably be fine on E10 might like to read the article here:

 

https://andrewsjapanesecars.com/imported-toyota-use-e10-fuel/

 

Personally I'll be treating my 2003 2.4L 2AZ-FE to the occasional super-unleaded (E5) top up but other than that I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.

[Rojie]

The E5 E10 debate has been, to me, surprisingly quiet of late

 

I was thinking of starting another thread on this subject but with a focus on how E10 was performing in members' vehicles; as opposed to how members were concerned about, or questioning, which fuel to use. That is, a thread based on experience rather than concerns.

 

The above article is very interesting, and agrees largely with info that I published previously, in this Forum, from extensive research undertaken in the US on E10 on a 1MZ FE engine, albeit a very old one engine (and probably of US manufacture).

 

There is a small error in the above article regarding E10 Super Unleaded.

Super Unleaded is E5, not E10. E10 is a new fuel in the UK, whereas Super Unleaded has been around for years.

 

I also came across an interesting 'Guide' published by Esso (Exxon) that stated all Esso E5 Supreme Plus 99 fuel in the UK is E0 in most, but not all regions of the UK.

 

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

 

What experiences are members encountering, good or bad, when using E10 fuels.

What reassurances, if any, can you offer our Alphie community.

[Rojie]

On 9/23/2021 at 9:03 AM, nov said:

 

I have 2.4 as well and I think the engine is a bit noiser on E10 (so far I did over 1000 miles on E10). There is definitely a difference and I believe it should be as at the end fuel consistency is different. 

 

We could find a lot of pros and cons for each type of the fuel however I'm sure the main question is... is it safe to use or not. 

 

Found this video interesting as fuels were tested under heavy load

 

 

Hi Nov,

 

Just a request for a quick update.

 

Have you quit using E10, or is E5 proving OK now ?

[nov]

19 minutes ago, Rojie said:

Hi Nov,

 

Just a request for a quick update.

 

Have you quit using E10, or is E5 proving OK now ?

 

Hi,

 

Yes, switched to E5 in November (after approx 1.5-2k miles on E10).

 

Mainly due to the lower mpg and bit noiser engine while on E10.

 

 

 

[Rojie]

1 hour ago, nov said:

 

Hi,

 

Yes, switched to E5 in November (after approx 1.5-2k miles on E10).

 

Mainly due to the lower mpg and bit noiser engine while on E10.

 

 

 

 

Hi Nov,

 

Thanks for your answer.

There is another new topic regarding E5 / E10 relative economy.

They have similar findings to your own.

[stevieh4130]

2005 facelift G 2.4. No problems running on Shell E10 now for over 6 months. Our van was an almost fresh UK import when we bought it. Smooth, reliable and refined showing 46000 miles or so on the odometer.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by stevieh4130

[OldWellhouse]

7 hours ago, stevieh4130 said:

2005 facelift G 2.4. No problems running on Shell E10 now for over 6 months. Our van was an almost fresh UK import when we bought it. Smooth, reliable and refined showing 46000 miles or so on the odometer.

 

Very nice. Is the 2 tone painted or wrapped?

[stevieh4130]

Painted. Milldown Campers in Folkestone 👍

[sarath]

On 9/19/2021 at 2:26 PM, Adrian Smith said:

I have a 2.4 alphard and find that with e10 fuel the mpg is severely affected so is the power and the engine seems noisier ( probably pinking) using e5 now at a premium it’s perfect again . Has anyone else noticed this .

I have seen a similar performance difference between e10 and e5.I was continuously using e10 as I was told by the dealer it is OK.Issues I have noticed is it was not accelerating when I need it to be and was sluggish going above 70 mph. 

When changed to e5 it seems to be smooth.Mine is 2.4 2AZFE engine and one of the oldest cars probably 2002.

[pipsyp]

I'm tempted to give 99 a go on my 2.4 and see if it makes much difference on the next tank.  Mine seems to run just fine on E10, though I do nearly always use branded (Texaco) fuel and not any old carp.

 

I think it's much the case that E10 won't be damaging, but you'll probably get a little more power and smoothness from showing it the higher octane stuff.

 

I had a 2005 Audi A3 2.0 FSi previously and that was one of only two engines in the VAG range that didn't properly support E10, not because it wouldn't run on it but it would eventually destroy the HPFP on it as Ethanol was corrosive to it.  That said whilst I always ran it on 99 I know for a fact it was run on any old carp for years and never showed a problem so I do suspect some of its manufacturers just back covering.

Edited November 15, 2023 by pipsyp