E10 fuel from September 2021

[Fitzy]

I’m purchasing a 2008 Alphard being imported from Japan. Does anyone know if the vehicle is compatible with E10 fuel? 

[Rojie]

You should be OK. Which engine ?

[Fitzy]

Thank you, it’s 3.0L 

[shawn]

what is E10 fuel ?

[Fitzy]

The Gov website says E10 is compatible for Toyota European models - Not sure if this applies to imported cars? 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained#compatibility

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Fitzy
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[Pritch]

We nearly ready to take delivery of a 2005 V6 3.0l conversion, been trying to find out what the deal is on this year but struggling - anyone got any advice ?

TIA

[Fitzy]

7 hours ago, Pritch said:

We nearly ready to take delivery of a 2005 V6 3.0l conversion, been trying to find out what the deal is on this year but struggling - anyone got any advice ?

TIA

We’re in the same position, it’s very concerning that the Alphard is not E10 compatible.  I’ve been reading up on this, E5 is ok to use but it will only be available for 5 years… then the Gov will decide if it remains on the forecourts!! 

[shawn]

thanks

this is the first iv heard of this

[Picasso]

Alphard 3.0 and 2.4 can only run high-octane petrol this has always been the case you should never put in ordinary unleaded fuel it plays havoc with the 02 sensors I know this as I work for a well known motor factor's in the Midlands who specialise in jap imports we are always supplying o2 sensors for alphards 

[Fitzy]

2 minutes ago, Picasso said:

Alphard 3.0 and 2.4 can only run high-octane petrol this has always been the case you should never put in ordinary unleaded fuel it plays havoc with the 02 sensors I know this as I work for a well known motor factor's in the Midlands who specialise in jap imports we are always supplying o2 sensors for alphards 

Thanks for this very helpful info, so is it ok to use E10?  Or should I use E5 super unleaded which has higher octane than ordinary unleaded? 

[Picasso]

No you should never use e10 if you use e10 it will damage your fuel system with prolonged use if you accidentally use e10 it will be OK but you must dilute it with e5 soon as possible going lpg would be the best option as 3.0 engine is built for the lpg 

[Fitzy]

21 minutes ago, Picasso said:

No you should never use e10 if you use e10 it will damage your fuel system with prolonged use if you accidentally use e10 it will be OK but you must dilute it with e5 soon as possible going lpg would be the best option as 3.0 engine is built for the lpg 

Thank you for your response, you have concluded my investigations that E10 is not compatible for the Alphard. 

[Rojie]

Just to add to the confusion....

 

The RON of Japanese High Octane fuel (96) is almost the same as the UK Regular fuel (95).

So, it seems, that suggests the octane level is not the issue.

 

So does the Increased ethanol content damage the engine of fuel system?

Picasso says it does, and I have no reason to doubt him.

 

However, I attach an interesting article from the US NREL that suggests E10 is fine in (an albeit older) 1MZ FE engine fitted to a Toyota Camry.

I need to reread it regarding oxygen sensors. 1MZ FE is the engine in the earlier 3 litre Alphards until 2008

 

I have no objection to using a higher cost fuel, but am intrigued why the oxygen sensors are affected. Maybe they are sensitive to the difference in the composition of the exhaust gases beyond the oxygen levels. I thought E10 was about reducing noxious emissions.

 

Me, what will I do? Run an alternating fuel strategy to reduce the effects, if any, on my entire fuel system; until, of course, we are all better informed.

 

I will be asking my Toyota dealer tomorrow regarding Lexus and Camry engines.

 

Respectfully   Roger

1675062283_1MZFEEngine.pdf

Edited August 15, 2021 by Rojie
Correct spelling and add clarity

[Rojie]

This is an extract from the Renewable Fuels Association in the US.

 

Perception Ethanol destroys Air Mass Sensors and O2 Sensors.

 

FACTS: This statement is only not true, it’s impossible.  Mass Air Flow Sensors & Oxygen (O2) Sensors were developed and designed to measure the total amount AIR flowing into an engine and the amount of OXYGEN leaving an engine through the exhaust, respectively. AIR and OXYGEN…gases, not fuel/liquid. Neither are part of the liquid fuel system. The Mass Air Sensor is mounted outside the engine and has absolutely no physical connection with its liquid fuel system.  Nothing other than fresh-filtered air touches the Mass Air Flow Sensor. Simplified, this sensor’s job is analogous to that of ticket takers at the theater. They count the number of heads entering the theater while others (O2 sensors) count the per-ticket cash.  Heads-in / cash-out should balance. By measuring how much air goes in and at what temperature, the vehicle’s on-board computer can compare how much air leaves the engine and adjust fuel flow volume. It’s that simple. And to underscore the ridiculousness of the “damage” myth is that an ethanol molecule itself contains 35% oxygen and it evaporates at 174° F, leaving zero trace of emissions.

 

If the above is correct, and I want to believe it, there is probably another reason why Alphards are encountering O2 sensor failures.

More reading needed !

[Gordio21]

Well Rojie I'm glad I read your post on fuel damage because I filled with ordinary unleaded and if what you say is right I'm hoping no damage will be done. I'm running on lpg so only ⛽ to start. It does say in hand book 2.4 use unleaded and 3.0 premium. Thanks for the download link (very interesting). Regards Gordi.

[wjvh]

Boll0cks : I just Chuck the cheapest stuff I can find into my 3L v6 and she runs fine and gives me about 30mpg on long runs. These engines are more robust than you give them credit for.

[shawn]

iv been putting basic unleaded only in my 2.4 and no problems so far.

fingers crossed 🤞

[Fitzy]

My concern is for the future…the Government is rolling out E10 petrol in September & basic unleaded will no longer be available.  E5 (super unleaded) will continue to be available & this can be used in Alphards (non European models) & classic cars, however reports say E5 will only remain available for next 5 years & will then be reviewed by the Government, also the cost of E5 will go up!  Feels like LPG conversion is the way to go. 

[Roundhiller]

Been running my 2005 2.4 on 95 RON with no problems. It has the 2AZ-FE engine as used in the Avensis and Rav4, shown on the Gov.uk website as OK with E10 petrol (not the 2AZ-FSE which isn’t compatible with E10). I'm in agreement with wjvf, fill up and trust the robustness of Toyota engines.

[Fitzy]

16 minutes ago, Roundhiller said:

Been running my 2005 2.4 on 95 RON with no problems. It has the 2AZ-FE engine as used in the Avensis and Rav4, shown on the Gov.uk website as OK with E10 petrol (not the 2AZ-FSE which isn’t compatible with E10). I'm in agreement with wjvf, fill up and trust the robustness of Toyota engines.

Premium Unleaded (95 RON)
Super Unleaded (97 / 98 RON)

 

I understand 95 RON will no longer be available when E10 is rolled out.  
So will you use E5 (97 RON) for next 5 years? I’m concerned what fuel to use when E5 is no longer available? 

[shawn]

Government web site says the new fuel is ok for Alphards (so im told )

But it stipulates European Alphards are ok.

Mine is a Jap import, So no government advise for me then 😞

[Roundhiller]

On 8/17/2021 at 8:59 PM, Fitzy said:

Premium Unleaded (95 RON)
Super Unleaded (97 / 98 RON)

 

I understand 95 RON will no longer be available when E10 is rolled out.  
So will you use E5 (97 RON) for next 5 years? I’m concerned what fuel to use when E5 is no longer available? 

I'm using E10, no problems so far

[Gordio21]

Well Roundhiller I'm not sure where it goes from here on. So many different theories I've read. I filled with standard 4 wks ago and still have 3/4 of a tank and so far no problem. Saying that i run LPG so only use petrol for a mile each start up. The polish guy who converted mine said e10 has been over the pond for a long time and England has a higher rating than Japan. He remotely checked the running on gas and ⛽ and assured me everything is fine and reckons e10 is no problem for mine but my next fill will be premium which it states in hand book. Take care.Gordi😁😁

[Andrew]

E10 protector made by Wynn's is now available to buy from places like eurocarparts. 

They claim it makes e10 safe for use in any petrol engine. 

[Rojie]

Andrew, Hi, very interesting.

 

I have just been reading Wynn's product description.

 

Despite not believing everything I read, and being wary of marketing materials; it is an interesting product.

 

I have not worked out the economy of this; is it cheaper than E5 ? Probably, just a hassle remembering to add it at each fill up.

 

What is very interesting, is that Wynn's CLAIM it is OK for use in Direct Injection engines.

Some Toyotas have direct injection. I know the 3litre V6 is multipoint injection; I believe the 2.4 L does too.