Rear Foglights - better integration

[Chris.ac]

So, I have an aftermarket foglight switch in dash, and some crappy little projector bulb at back (fitted onto the right reflector), but I am not satisfied.

 

I can see in the dash display, next to the illuminated symbol for front fog is a rear fog.

I have isolated the OEM wiring circuit diagrammes for the rear fog, including the position of the relay.

I have confirmed via the russian owners manual that their lighting stalk is on the left and includes the rear fog position (you have to pass through the front, so front is always illuminated if rear are)

 

Now - I have not been successful yet in my search for a right side stalk with both rear and front fogs, and it may be that it was only designed for left hand drive cars in russia and some parts of asia.

 

BUT: given the looms in toyotas are usually identical across models, with the extras just being left unconnected, the additional feed to the dashboard must still exist - so the possibility to get a proper illuminated symbol on dash exists (I have often forgotten rear fog is on, because the aftermarket buttons are usually obscured by my knee or steering wheel)

 

It would also be great to use the proper wiring loom and have the fuse and relay easily servicable.

 

Anyone else got any insight?

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Chris.ac

[starider]

My 2007 Alphard was fitted on import[for MOT Test purposes] with an after market rear fog light.An illuminated switch has been fitted in an easy to see position on the dash board behind the light switch. The actual lamp was just bolted on the bottom of the rear skirt and looked horrible. I purchased a couple of flush mounted rear fogs off fleabay and as there is not enough room to fit these behind the rear skirt I made a couple of panel brackets and mounted these[one each side] on the bottom edge of the skirt.They look quite good and much better than the "add on".

[Chris.ac]

i missed out on the japanese yahoo auction site for a rhd light stalk that had both front and rear fog positions, the kit came with the relay that went in engine bay holder and an extension wire loom that ran from the rear side into the tailgate and made the two reverse lights a dual red/white LED - the priority was switched from fog to reverse when engaging rear gear - From what I can see, this stalk is common on several JDM cars like the lexus - but european built cars have the stalk on the left.

 

It at least confirmed that if you fit the relay in to the right slot in the fuse box, and use the wiring in the steering column, you will be able to get the dashboard light to work, which is a lot nicer than remembering to tilt head to see the switch near my knee

[Chris.ac]

Fitted upgraded light stalk, rear fog is now switched on/off via momentary switch

 

Hardest part was freeing the steering wheel, but even with my lack of experience, I was able to remove old and replace with new in less than 45mins.

If anyone genuinely interested, I will remove it all again to show steps.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Chris.ac

[Chris.ac]

Part number  84140-42080 - common to several high end toyotas, the standard part is 84140-42070 - the wiring loom is already set up for the rear fog, even the fuse was present - I had to add the relay in the passenger side footwell.

 

I bought part from here:

https://www.amayama.com/en/part/toyota/8414042080

 

next step is to drop bumper and connect the fogs to the existing plug that is attached to the driver side rear sonar sensor

[Pip]

Hi Chris,

 

I have a 2009 (Series 20) Alphard.  Before it was imported I had the rear fogs installed, such that they should turn off and on from the steering wheel stalk controls (much like I think yours done ) - the install involved a new stalk and a relay, done/arranged by the agent I used to buy the car from an Osaka auction..

 

The rear fogs are now (a year after I got the car) no longer working.  I am trying to diagnose the problem.  if you wouldn't mind it would be great if you could explain or send a photo where the relay was that you added in the passenger side footwell.  I'm suspecting either a dodgy relay, or a loose connection, but I'm not sure (as I didn't install this myself exactly where the relay in question would likely be).

 

It sounds like your well on the way to getting your rear fogs installed and working.  best of luck!

 

Phil

 

 

[Pip]

Quick update to my own question..it's not solved, but I've eliminated some possibilities tonight.

1. I found the rear fogs fuse (on the drivers side) - it was fine.

2. I found the rear fogs relay (on the passenger side)

3. I removed that relay, and checked it, it was fine. 

 

So that means I've confirmed ok everything between and including the stalk switch, the fuse, and the relay.  So I'm now wondering if the problem is to do with the wiring between the relay and the rear fogs, or the leds in the rear fogs themselves.

 

My next step is to get access to the connections into the rear fogs (i.e. behind the bumper) and stick a multimeter on it to see what's going on and the back end.

 

This certainly is one way to learn about an S20 Alphard.  I'm finding toyodiy.com and toyota.epc-data.com really useful in terms of getting diagrams and part numbers so I can figure out where stuff is.

 

Phil 

[Chris.ac]

Merry Christmas - Rear fog wiring.pdfI attach excerpt from the wiring diagramme - full trace of rear fogs - hope it helps, I got the digramme from cardiagn'dot'com.

[Chris.ac]

im at the point of 'do i install these reflector replacement led lenses, or do I go for a switchback red/white led bulbs in the reverse light holders and preserve the standard reflectors.

[Rojie]

9 hours ago, Chris.ac said:

im at the point of 'do i install these reflector replacement led lenses, or do I go for a switchback red/white led bulbs in the reverse light holders and preserve the standard reflectors.

 

Hi Chris,

Be careful which reflector led lenses you fit; most are not reflectors. See my recent thread elsewhere.

I think this rear reflector issue will be increasing soon as more owners realise they don't have any rear reflectors, me included.

 

I need to understand what you have done check whether I ca achieve the same on my 2006.

That is to use one of the rear tail lights as the rear fogs and reinstate the reflectors.

[Chris.ac]

well, there are bulbs that can display both red and white,, so with fog switch on, they are red, and get overridden with white if you put in reverse.

Apparently the light o/p is improved over the standard reerse lights too, so a bonus.

[Chris.ac]

something like this - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32780015356.html

 

[Rojie]

23 hours ago, Chris.ac said:

well, there are bulbs that can display both red and white,, so with fog switch on, they are red, and get overridden with white if you put in reverse.

Apparently the light o/p is improved over the standard reverse lights too, so a bonus.

 

So if these are placed in the rear reversing lights I can replace the non reflecting fog lights in my bumper with reflectors.

(Would this approach be MOT compliant ? I need to reread the requirement on DVLA)

 

But then I need to reroute the fog light feed into the tail gate from the rear valance. I think that will be beyond my capabilities.

 

I am still looking for a easier solution, reflectors on mud flaps is still my easiest option.

I have requested a photo from Starider of his most recent implementation.

 

Thanks for your suggestion, Chris, but I think it is a step too far for me.

 

What I need is to find what I already have, but that does have a reflector.

Trouble is, no (Alphard type) reflectors seem to have the correct combination !

[Chris.ac]

its annoying, I have seen some other manufacturers have a 50/50 bumper installed reflector/fog.

The other option I toyed with, was some kind of frankensteins monster of cutting and glueing together the retroreflector to the new fog lamp, what I need is someone with good 3d printer design skills to make some kind of holder or housing

 

its all so painful - the official toyota rear fog fits into the small 'quarter' panel that clips to the bumper and sits under the rear lights, I suppose I could buy that panel from amayama, but it looks a little naf, unless I buy one for each side.

 

So, options that are non destructive.

a) buy 2 quarter panels, and fog lights at probably over £500 - nope

b) use dual colour led bulbs in reverse lights, extending cable from existing fog lamp loom - doable, and really easy to replace bulbs/maintenance if need be.

c) find an actual reflector with lamp for retrofit in bumper - still looking

d) open up and cut glue together the original retroreflective lens to the replacement led lamp - feasible if slightly more cumbersome.

 

 

[Rojie]

31 minutes ago, Chris.ac said:

its annoying, I have seen some other manufacturers have a 50/50 bumper installed reflector/fog.

The other option I toyed with, was some kind of frankensteins monster of cutting and glueing together the retroreflector to the new fog lamp, what I need is someone with good 3d printer design skills to make some kind of holder or housing

 

its all so painful - the official toyota rear fog fits into the small 'quarter' panel that clips to the bumper and sits under the rear lights, I suppose I could buy that panel from amayama, but it looks a little naf, unless I buy one for each side.

 

So, options that are non destructive.

a) buy 2 quarter panels, and fog lights at probably over £500 - nope

b) use dual colour led bulbs in reverse lights, extending cable from existing fog lamp loom - doable, and really easy to replace bulbs/maintenance if need be.

c) find an actual reflector with lamp for retrofit in bumper - still looking

d) open up and cut glue together the original retroreflective lens to the replacement led lamp - feasible if slightly more cumbersome.

 

 

I have not searched yet, but I may consider 'sticking' some reflectors on the tailgate or valance.

Not very aesthetic.

Of course, after all this trouble the MOT inspector might not have noticed the original reflectors are missing !

 

My thinking seems to get more outlandish as this saga continues.

Can I fit reflectors to the tailgate spoiler somehow ?

 

The search continues.

[starider]

I have previously posted on this subject,but to repeat,I wasn't happy with the single"add on" fog lamp, so purchased a pair of flush fitting lamps.there is not enough room behind the bumper to fit these so made a pair of brackets which allowed just the lens to protrude.The top edge of the bracket was bent at approx. 90%[which allowed for the angle of the bottom edge of the bumper]. and drilled brackets and bumper skirt to fit one either side. Removed the add on and used the wiring to it to join up the two new fogs. I had painted the brackets the approx. the same body colour. Fleabay number  361946449366.

[Rojie]

Just read the DVLA requirements again.

 

Two rear reflectors are required.

They must be mounted symmetrically on the vehicle at the same height.

 

There does not appear to be a size requirement.

Nor does there seem to be a requirement that they are mounted oriented horizontally.

Reflective tape is not acceptable.

 

So, methinks, maybe two small ones stuck (permanently) on the rear number plate.

I did consider two rear fogs bolted to the outside of the tailgate, but then I still have the fog light feed issue.

 

Before I do anything I will visit my MOT Inspector and discuss the problem with him.

[starider]

If someone would tell me[sorry,the wife!] how we can put up photographs, I/she will happily post some pics of the rear of our Alphard showing the rear fogs.

[starider]

If anyone wants chapter and verse on rear lighting requirements for MOT Test I have ALL the paperwork at hand,

[Rojie]

Hi Chris, Hi Starider,

 

I think I may have found the solution, for me at least.

 

I have been reviewing motorcycle rear reflectors on ebay.

Many are made to stick onto rear number plates.

There seems to be many that should fit my needs.

 

Starider,

Are these motorcycle reflectors OK for an Alphard?

Also, when you reply to a topic you can 'drag and drop' a photo file to the area with the paperclip denoted.

Or you can choose files.

You can also copy a URL and paste it directly into your.

[starider]

I am not sure what the diameter or shape of the motorcycle reflectors are. I have a Greeves 250 Griffon MotoX motorcycle which is road legal daylight only. I have a rectangular reflector on the rear number plate 2" x 1 1/2". which seems adequate. I use the addage the bigger the better.

As I mentioned before my Alphard has the reflectors in the rear bumper below the light clusters, but I have bolted an extra rectangular reflector on each mud flap.

[starider]

Hi,just had a thought, I had always understood that reflectors must be mounted to some point which gives an indication of the vehicle width.If the reflcetors were on the number plate; from a distance they would not indicate a true width. I will have to study carefully the MOT requirements, although I don't remember reading about width placement. Vehicle Construction Laws may give the answer. I'll see what I can find out.

[Rojie]

Hi Starider,

 

I read the DVLA guidance to MOT inspectors just yesterday.

 

There are no dimensional stipulations re reflector size or positioning other than symmetry across the vehicle and height

The Inspectors are not obliged to measure any position just a visual check.

 

If the reflectors have deteriorated, or are loose, that can be a failure.

 

The motorcycle reflector vary in size from 20mm diameter upwards, and some are rectangular.

[starider]

Having read The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, which state[if I read them correctly], that the minimum separation distance between 2 red reflectors is 600mm and the maximum distance from each the side of the vehicle is 400mm.These dimensions apply to the Alphard.

 

These measurements are less if the vehicle is narrower. Hope this helps.

[Rojie]

3 hours ago, starider said:

Having read The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, which state[if I read them correctly], that the minimum separation distance between 2 red reflectors is 600mm and the maximum distance from each the side of the vehicle is 400mm.These dimensions apply to the Alphard.

 

These measurements are less if the vehicle is narrower. Hope this helps.

 

 

Yes it does help. Thank you.

 

All a bit of a mess, isn't it !

 

i respect what you have advised, but, according to my reading of the instructions to MOT inspectors, those regulations are not part of the MOT inspection !

It would appear DVLA can't agree with itself ! I note you don't mention any requirement for the height of reflectors.

 

So, I need to reread the DVLA info.

 

Notwithstanding that, the motorcycle reflectors are so small as to be relatively unobtrusive,

That is still my favourite solution as they can be positioned anywhere that complies with your advice.

When the Inspector that does my cars returns from New Year i will speak with him.

 

THANKS for doing all the research. It is appreciated.

Solving this problem is easy, doing it aesthetically is proving more difficult !

 

As a wild afterthought whilst re reading this; as the size of fog lights is not specified, I could stick these small 20mm reflectors on my fog lights.

Eureka !

I just need to ensure the fog lights are not largely obscured.

 

If the 3M tape doesn't adhere well, the superglue will !