Overweight vehicle

[John Hollis]

I am about to buy a 2.4 hybrid 2002-2008. ATH 10. I am trying to check whether all the gear I want to put in it is within the manufacturer's total weight. Can't find a reliable source for the Kerb weight (haven't got the car yet, so I can't weigh it). But more importantly, I can't find the Toyota statement about the maximum allowable payload. I would expect front and rear maximum load data. I am sure this topic must have been discussed on this forum, if only to make sure none of us have illegal vehicles on the road. But I can't find any reference. 

[MonsterS]

I believe the kerb weight is 1960kg and the gross is 2390kg.

[John Hollis]

Thanks for your response! I was hoping for a bigger gross. Your info gives a 430 kg payload. I saw a Gross figure of 2520 for the current generation Alphard. A common UK/USA design weight is 75kg per person. So a 7 seater would need 525 kg payload (plus a full tank). I suppose Japanese design weight per person might be lower. Dividing 430 by 7 gives just over 60 kg per person so it does look reasonable. I happen to have a manual for the 3rd generation with a single figure for kerb weight, but it is not really credible as all models show the same kerb weight of 1900 kg (both for 2WD and 4WD). SO your 1960 looks about right. NO INFO in there on Gross Weights!!! or axle loading in the whole 303 pages.

The issue is, If I convert to lpg, 60kg, put an electric pop up roof 70 kg, a big bed 80 kg, fridge 17 kg, kitchen and cupboards 45 kg, air/water heater 10 kg, bedding 10 kg, clothes 30 kg, food 30 kg, 2 adults @ 75 150 kg I am up to 502 kg, less 4 seats maybe 60 kg, less a tyre 10 kg  is 432 kg. So it becomes a 2 person vehicle and nothing left for on-board water. 

Looks like no lpg then. 

What about stronger springs/suspension? Have you come across those?

[John Hollis]

Managed to find some authentic -looking Alphard kerb weights on   https://www.goo-net-exchange.com/catalog/TOYOTA__ALPHARD_V/    The 1960 kg identified by MonsterS corresponds to a 2994cc CBA-MNH15W MS model. The same source on  https://www.goo-net-exchange.com/catalog/TOYOTA__ALPHARD_HYBRID/  gives 2050 kg for a ATH10 G Edition hybrid for 2006. I suppose my early 2008 model will be the same. Still no data on the Gross Vehicle Mass, which id what Toyota calls the Maximum Permissible loading. Although I saw a review which said the payload was 400kg and I found an article which had a kerb weight of 1790 kg and a GVM of 2245 kg, a payload of 465 kg. The source mentioned above has a 2003 UA-ANH10W AS Premium model at 1790 kg.This is only 20 kg higher than the bottom of the range at 1770 kg.The top of the range that year had a weight of 2000 KG. But if the GVW were only 2390 kg it wouldn't be able to take 7 passengers. Now 7 people in this MPV at the Japanese average male weight of 62.5 kg gives 437.5 kg. I am beginning to think that the Alphard Gross Vehicle Mass is defined by adding 437.5 Kg to whatever the vehicle kerb weight happens to be rather than what the actual components have been designed to withstand. On this basis my 2050 kg Alphard has a GVM of 2480 kg. LOL.  I have put in a couple of emails asking Toyota GB and AU if they have the 'design' GVM of my Alphard ATH10. 

[Gareth Marchant]

I appreciate that this is an old thread that didn't come to a final conclusion, but try as I might I cannot get a definitive answer either for what the maximum weight is that an Alphard chassis can carry. I have uncovered the original Alphard brochures by model year which provide the GVW for all of the different models, and the difference between kerb weight and gross weight for the heaviest Alphards (8 seat Hybrid, 8 seat 30L 4WD and 8 seat 3.0L 2WD) is consistently 440kg. What differs is the actual GVW by model, with the heaviest being 2440kg for the 8 seat Hybrid. I am also aware that the GVW is listed on the Japanese De-Registration Document; what I don't know is if this is the same figure as quoted in the brochure for the particular model, or a maximum weight for all models. 

What I am not clear about is whether you can load any gen 1 Alphard to 2440kg (this assumes no significant difference in chassis or suspension, which might not be the case), and I just can’t find an official source for the data. Anyone able to point me in the right direction? 

[pcous]

3 hours ago, Gareth Marchant said:

What I am not clear about is whether you can load any gen 1 Alphard to 2440kg (this assumes no significant difference in chassis or suspension, which might not be the case), and I just can’t find an official source for the data. Anyone able to point me in the right direction?

Hi Gareth,

I can't address your general question, but the Japanese de-registration document for our Alphard Gen 1 (MS model, 7-seater, 2007) states unladen (kerb) weight 1870kg and gross weight 2255kg. So the difference between unladen & GVW is 385kg, suggesting that the calculation for average weight of a Japanese citizen is 55kg - considerably less than the average UK bod I imagine, but consistent with your 440kg figure for an 8-seater.  Weight distribution unladen was 1070kg front / 800kg rear. Ours was converted to a campervan on import and I was concerned at the time that the fixed furniture etc. would take the new unladen weight too close to the GVW.

[Gareth Marchant]

38 minutes ago, pcous said:

Hi Gareth,

I can't address your general question, but the Japanese de-registration document for our Alphard Gen 1 (MS model, 7-seater, 2007) states unladen (kerb) weight 1870kg and gross weight 2255kg. So the difference between unladen & GVW is 385kg, suggesting that the calculation for average weight of a Japanese citizen is 55kg - considerably less than the average UK bod I imagine, but consistent with your 440kg figure for an 8-seater.  Weight distribution unladen was 1070kg front / 800kg rear. Ours was converted to a campervan on import and I was concerned at the time that the fixed furniture etc. would take the new unladen weight too close to the GVW.

Hi pcous

Thanks for your response. That's interesting; the 2WD 2007, 7 seater MS is listed in the brochure as kerb weight 1860kg, GVW 2245kg so it gained 10kg! I am about to have an Alphard converted, and I have the same concerns about post conversion weight. How close do you get to the quoted GVW in practice? What helped you overcome your concerns about the weight before/when you got your van?    

Edited August 15, 2022 by Gareth Marchant

[pcous]

Gareth - An extra 10kg? – that’s almost a fifth of a person, so we probably need to be grateful!

1 hour ago, Gareth Marchant said:

How close do you get to the quoted GVW in practice? What helped you overcome your concerns about the weight before/when you got your van?    

To answer your question though - I didn’t know about the potential weight issue until after campervan conversion. I put our converted Alphard on a weighbridge, front first, then fully, to calculate the separate unladen/laden front/rear axle weights. Campervan furniture added just short of 300kg to the original unladen vehicle weight, although a proportion of that increase was due to the LPG tank that we also added as part of fuel conversion. After conversion, the overall unladen weight distribution front/rear was 50:50 (compared to heavier front end unladen for the original vehicle) – so the conversion loaded almost entirely on the rear axle, as you would expect. On import, ours was registered with DVLA with the original Japanese GVW from the export certificate (although I understand that, as it was registered in the Motor Caravan/PLG category, there was no actual requirement to list a revenue weight/GVW if under 3500kg – don’t know why…). So, faced with the possibility of overloading, we asked an engineer to assess it, who specified upgraded rear coil springs, and then submitted the new (increased) GVW figure from his assessment to DVLA to modify the V5C certificate. So that helped address the payload question, but all in all it was a palarver!

 

There’s an interesting post on another forum that explains the opaque differences between weight figures on the V5C:

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/revenue-weight.154170/

[Gareth Marchant]

 

Quote

So, faced with the possibility of overloading, we asked an engineer to assess it, who specified upgraded rear coil springs, and then submitted the new (increased) GVW figure from his assessment to DVLA to modify the V5C certificate. So that helped address the payload question, but all in all it was a palarver!

Do you mind me asking what the increased GVW figure was that the engineer specified? I am about to commit to an MZG conversion and I might end up doing the same as you. I'm also pleased I found someone who has been through the same concerns, as it doesn't seem to be something the conversion companies say much about. Cheers.  

[pcous]

On 8/15/2022 at 4:01 PM, Gareth Marchant said:

Do you mind me asking what the increased GVW figure was that the engineer specified?

So, we were looking for uprating to 2500kg GVW, with an absolute max of 2650kg. We agreed the calculations for the upgraded springs, but for some reason the engineer authorised a final GVW of 3300kg - way above our requirements!

[Jeza]

I just put my 2003 hybrid side camper conversion with lpg on our local council weighbridge today, 2470kg. That is with 1/3 tank of petrol 3/4 lpg, empty fridge, no bedding, a bit of food. V5C gives revenue weight as 2450kg - no room for awning, clothes or wife🤣  

[Gareth Marchant]

7 hours ago, pcous said:

So, we were looking for uprating to 2500kg GVW, with an absolute max of 2650kg. We agreed the calculations for the upgraded springs, but for some reason the engineer authorised a final GVW of 3300kg - way above our requirements!

Wow! 3300kg! That’s some set of springs. How did you source the engineer who did the calculations and spring specification, and were the springs specially made or freely available? I’m tempted to look into doing the same a you when, or after, I get my Alphard to have the peace of mind to be able to carry kit without worrying about it. I realise the chances of being pulled by DVSA for being over GVW is very slight if you are in a PLG vehicle, but I’m more conscious of the risks of inadvertently taking the van above safety tolerances on trips away. (I’d also quite like to know packing the wife is at least an option after I have clothes and the awning on board )      

[John Hollis]

Jazza,

If I were you, I would go back to the weighbridge and stand on it yourself to see what it gives your weight as. My Hybrid conversion was way less. I shall reweigh and do the stand test too.

[pcous]

Hi all,
We run fully laden at around 2450kg, 2 people, gear, full LPG, 1/4 tank petrol & bikes on rear towbar rack - which feels OK for stability/braking etc. So the 3300kg GVW as an upper limit just gives peace of mind and, to be honest, I wasn't going to query the figures as they were above what we actually needed.
Re engineers, we tried SVTech, but they couldn't help because Alphards weren't in their dataset, then contacted John Ruffles at JRC Consultancy (based in Bury St Edmunds). Uprated rear springs were made by Springcoil in Sheffield. Process took a while, started before but then ran into the pandemic period...

[Gareth Marchant]

21 hours ago, pcous said:

Hi all,
We run fully laden at around 2450kg, 2 people, gear, full LPG, 1/4 tank petrol & bikes on rear towbar rack - which feels OK for stability/braking etc. So the 3300kg GVW as an upper limit just gives peace of mind and, to be honest, I wasn't going to query the figures as they were above what we actually needed.
Re engineers, we tried SVTech, but they couldn't help because Alphards weren't in their dataset, then contacted John Ruffles at JRC Consultancy (based in Bury St Edmunds). Uprated rear springs were made by Springcoil in Sheffield. Process took a while, started before but then ran into the pandemic period...

Thanks very much for that info, pcous. I’ve been surprised how little information or consideration there seems to be out there for the effects on max vehicle weight of a camper conversion plus all the people and things you pack in it, and you have given me a path to follow to put something in place to address the concerns I have. Cheers.  

[Montecrist0]

Hi, have you considered these vehicles were made to carry up to 8 people (8 x 180 = 1440lbs) plus luggage as well as the seating which is very heavy. Personally I don't think you'll need uprated springs.

[John Hollis]

Not sure about how much luggage to assume. Not much room left when all 8 seats are taken up. Payload seems to be typically 440 kg which is likely 8 Japanese at 55kg each. That's more like 1000 lb. But there will be certainly be design provision for more than that weight. 8 Sumo wrestlers would pack 1200 kg, but wouldn't physically fit in......... UK vehicles used to be designed with 75 kg/person  in mind. A good guide as to whether a vehicle is overloaded or not is how it sits in relation to the wheel arch/tyres. If it looks overloaded, then it probably is.

[Montecrist0]

Yeah! good thinking.

[Gareth Marchant]

2 hours ago, Montecrist0 said:

Hi, have you considered these vehicles were made to carry up to 8 people (8 x 180 = 1440lbs) plus luggage as well as the seating which is very heavy. Personally I don't think you'll need uprated springs.

 

For me, that is part of the problem. My understanding is the official Japanese GVW for vehicle is based on the kerb weight plus 7/8 occupants, using an average figure for a Japanese person giving the c.440Kg figure. What that isn’t is a number which tells you the maximum load the unladen vehicle can safely carry. That is the design provision weight I have tried to find without success, and it is interesting that an engineer did advise uprating the springs on the camper conversion mentioned in this thread. 

A 7 seater will have a lower quoted GVW than an 8 seater, but the vehicle is exactly the same. This is why I wondered if you could take the heaviest quoted Alphard GVW (8 seat Hybrid @ 2450kg)  and use that as the max you go to? 

[Montecrist0]

I would, without actually weighing them, think that the camper conversion alone would weigh less than the original seats, if they have been taken out.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Montecrist0

[John Hollis]

In my case that is so, because JAL use lightweight wood conversions, but I think other companies might use heavier materials. Extra LPG tanks are very heavy to withstand the pressure.

[Gareth Marchant]

1 hour ago, Montecrist0 said:

I would, without actually weighing them, think that the camper conversion alone would weigh less than the original seats, if they have been taken out.

That might be the case, but with pop top, lpg fuel and habitation conversion, awning, camping gear, etc I wonder where it takes it to? If you look at the comments earlier in the thread, a figure of 2450 kg is quoted for a camper, and another owner I know of weighed in at 2440 kg fully laden, which is right up there with the highest quoted GVW for the hybrid. 

It is one of the reasons why I didn’t go with a conversion company much closer to me geographically as it offered solid wood worktops, induction hobs, etc all on a hybrid chassis. I just saw excess weight for the sake of posh fittings.  

[Charlie Brown]

I've been following this post with some interest. From comments made I found that the export certificate for our 2008, 1st generation, 2.4 Alphard was for 1830 kg unladen and 2270 kg fully laden. The log book confirms the unladen weight, but gives no figure for max permissible mass. This fits in with the comments that Toyota apply a load of 440 kg. The van has been converted to a camper van, with all the usual including a pop top. I then had it weighed. 1/4 tank, myself and the wife, our normal gear and enough food and clothes for a weekend. It came to 2220 kg.

[Gareth Marchant]

9 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

I've been following this post with some interest. From comments made I found that the export certificate for our 2008, 1st generation, 2.4 Alphard was for 1830 kg unladen and 2270 kg fully laden. The log book confirms the unladen weight, but gives no figure for max permissible mass. This fits in with the comments that Toyota apply a load of 440 kg. The van has been converted to a camper van, with all the usual including a pop top. I then had it weighed. 1/4 tank, myself and the wife, our normal gear and enough food and clothes for a weekend. It came to 2220 kg.

Hi Charlie. May I ask if your van is a side conversion or a rear conversion, and does your figure include carrying any bikes?   

[Charlie Brown]

Hello Gareth. It is a side conversion and the total figure did not include bikes or bike racks. Hope this helps.