Spongy brakes on Alphard. Any solutions to fix this?

[MicroMike]

First post here, hello everyone! 😊

 

I just bought an imported 2006 Alphard (campervan conversion), it's superb, but the only problem is the brakes are spongy.

 

You have to press the pedal down quite far before any braking happens and then you have to REALLY press down hard to make it properly brake. I'm used to driving a VW Golf and VW Sharan, both of which have firm and responsive brakes, so I'm naturally a little worried about this.

 

When the vehicle is loaded up with our camping gear and my wife and kids, the problem is even worse because the vehicle is obviously heavier.

 

• Is this normal for Alphards?

• How can this be fixed?

 

I've booked the car in a local garage to investigate, but the garage pre-warned me there's only so much they can do, because their main parts suppliers don't recognise Alphards at all. They said they're happy to take a look, but beyond changing the brake fluid there's nothing else they can do, as they can't get the parts to modify or fix the vehicle (e.g. brake pads, etc).

 

Is there another Toyota vehicle that can be used for Alphard parts in the UK? If there is, I can let the garage know and hopefully they can get the parts we might need.

 

Any suggestions or ideas on how to respond to this would be much appreciated, thank you!

 

[smurf]

It isn't easy to say without truly knowing how your brakes are performing, but I think you will find that this is just the way they are, and you aren't the first to comment on it.

 

I can certainly sympathise as I have become used to cars with brakes that are very strong with little pedal pressure, and find braking in the Alphard reminds more of cars of old. Gentle pressure does very little, I've found, and I've got a hybrid that also has the advantage of regenerative braking at the same time. 

Edited August 29 by smurf

[Picasso]

There was a recall in Japan on the brake servo issues there is a link on here somewhere where you put your vin in and it tells you what recalls have been done 

[Picasso]

Just found the link could you pm me your reg no. And I will attach a screen shot of the report

[Rojie]

Braided brake pipes may help. 

 

I agree with the others; the brakes can feel a little soft.

 

Of course you need to consider your driving style too.

Comparison with other vehicles, although quite natural, may not be the best approach.

I have another car with Brembo brakes, so any comparison I make is largely meaningless.

Perhaps your VWs do have better brakes.

Presumably you have checked the fluid level.

Changing the fluid can do no harm.

Are the disc rotors a little thin ?

 

I respectfully suggest you find any empty car park and do some familiarisation stops.

Try and sit closer to the pedals if you comfortably can, and try and avoid a (partially) reclined driving position.

 

When is your MOT due ? I am sure your local guys can perform an objective brake test for you.

 

Good Luck, I hope you find them satisfactory.

[MicroMike]

4 hours ago, smurf said:

It isn't easy to say without truly knowing how your brakes are performing, but I think you will find that this is just the way they are, and you aren't the first to comment on it.

 

I can certainly sympathise as I have become used to cars with brakes that are very strong with little pedal pressure, and find braking in the Alphard reminds more of cars of old. Gentle pressure does very little, I've found, and I've got a hybrid that also has the advantage of regenerative braking at the same time. 

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

On one hand it's reassuring to know that I'm not to first to comment on this issue, but on the other hand, it's disappointing to imagine that it might just be the way the brakes are (and that I just have to live with it). 

 

The guy at the garage suggested a change in brake fluid might help, so I guess that's the first thing to try. Apparently the brake fluid is 'hydroscopic' and moisture ingress over many years dilutes the brake fluid and that can make the brakes feel more spongy. I don't expect it to solve the problem, but maybe it will mitigate it? I'll give it a shot and report back. Thanks again

[MicroMike]

4 hours ago, Picasso said:

Just found the link could you pm me your reg no. And I will attach a screen shot of the report

 

That's very kind of you, thank you. I just sent you a DM. 👍

[MicroMike]

1 hour ago, Rojie said:

Braided brake pipes may help. 

 

I agree with the others; the brakes can feel a little soft.

 

Of course you need to consider your driving style too.

Comparison with other vehicles, although quite natural, may not be the best approach.

A have another car with Brembo brakes, so any comparison I make is largely meaningless.

Perhaps your VWs do have better brakes.

Presumably you have checked the fluid level.

Changing the fluid can do no harm.

Are the disc rotors a little thin ?

 

I respectfully suggest you find any empty car park and do some familiarisation stops.

Try and sit closer to the pedals if you comfortably can, and try and avoid a (partially) reclined driving position.

 

When is your MOT due ? I am sure your local guys can perform an objective brake test for you.

 

Good Luck, I hope you find them satisfactory.

 

 

Some really helpful & practical ideas in here, thank you!

• I'll mention the braided brake pipes and disc rotors to the garage when they investigate and change the brake fluid next week. 
• The MOT was done just before I bought the car last week. (It passed with no issues.)

I have driven lots of cars over the years (both my own and many company cars at work) and my previous vehicle was a 7.5m Auto-trail motorhome, but the Alphard definitely has the 'worst' brakes I've known.

 

Don't get me wrong, the brakes do stop the car, but my word, it feels like you have to really work for it. There's lots of play in the brake pedal and you need to really pump the pedal to stop the car. It's such a shame because I love literally everything else about the car!

 

I'm hopeful I can improve the situation with some diligent work and follow-up over the next few weeks. 

 

I'll report back here and hopefully it may help other users who have the same issue in the future. 

 

Thanks again for your comments and help in figuring this out. 👍

[Picasso]

Just checked only recall done on yours was air bags which was done same as mine 

[Picasso]

So that tells me there was no issue with brake servo 

[Rojie]

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, it absorbs moisture.

 

It is important to keep the cap on the brake reservoir tightly; and any brake fluid you may have at home.

 

If the brakes are 'spongey', need pumping, I think a brake fluid change will improve the braking efficiency.

 

Furthermore, brake fluid that has absorbed moisure can be very dangerous.

Under severe braking, the brake fluid will get hot, and the moisture absorbed within in it can boil.

The nearer the moisure is to the disc, the higher the tendency to 'boil'

 

You cannot compress hydraulic fliud, or water (but you can increase the pressure of both), but water vapour can be compressed.

Changing your brake fluid is not expensive.

If the brakes have a better feel it's money well spent; if they don't at least you know the fluid is not the cause.

[starider]

Not with standing the previous comments, speaking to the mechanics who MOT my Alphard,the general census is that the "spongy" feelings when braking is due to the ABS,I  must admit that on occasions when needing to brake hard, the "feeling" can be "is it going to stop?" but I have noticed if I press the pedal harder the brakes do work as you would expect. My Alphard always passes the MOT brake test with no comments about the brakes.

[Torq2u]

I fitted braided brake lines (at a considerable expense, imported) with no discernable improvement. Change the fluid for the above reasons. Maybe research if a particular brand of pads is more effective - something I have done successfully in the past.

[smurf]

Greenstuff pads will probably make a small improvement to braking efficiency, but they do create a lot more brake dust. 

[MicroMike]

8 hours ago, Picasso said:

So that tells me there was no issue with brake servo 

Should I mention this to the garage when I take the car in to them, do you think? Is the brake servo something they can check?

[MicroMike]

5 hours ago, Rojie said:

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, it absorbs moisture.

 

It is important to keep the cap on the brake reservoir tightly; and any brake fluid you may have at home.

 

If the brakes are 'spongey', need pumping, I think a brake fluid change will improve the braking efficiency.

 

Furthermore, brake fluid that has absorbed moisure can be very dangerous.

Under severe braking, the brake fluid will get hot, and the moisture absorbed within in it can boil.

They nearer the moisure is to the disc, the higher the tendency to 'boil'

 

You cannot compress hydraulic fliud, or water (but you can increase the pressureof both), but water vapour can be compressed.

Changing your brake fluid is not expensive.

If the brakes have a better feel it's money well spent; if they don't at least you know the fluid is not the cause.

 

Interesting. Thanks for sharing this, I'll change the brake fluid and then reassess. If it makes no difference, I'll try changing the pads for a more effective brand. 

[MicroMike]

1 hour ago, smurf said:

Greenstuff pa

1 hour ago, smurf said:

Greenstuff pads will probably make a small improvement to braking efficiency, but they do create a lot more brake dust. 

 

I've never heard of this. Is 'brake dust' a problem worth worrying about?

 

If it's just a cosmetic thing (e.g. literally just surface dust), I don't care. But if it can cause mechanical problems then I'd be more concerned.

[MicroMike]

Is there a particular type or brand of brakes that are recognised as being excellent?

 

If so, I'll happily pay the cash to put them on the Alphard. I love everything about this car except these pesky brakes! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[MicroMike]

3 hours ago, starider said:

Not with standing the previous comments, speaking to the mechanics who MOT my Alphard,the general census is that the "spongy" feelings when braking is due to the ABS,I  must admit that on occasions when needing to brake hard, the "feeling" can be "is it going to stop?" but I have noticed if I press the pedal harder the brakes do work as you would expect. My Alphard always passes the MOT brake test with no comments about the brakes.

 

That's the exact feeling I have. 

 

Is it possible to turn the ABS off, I wonder? I'm not sure if that would cause more problems than it solves, but if it's an optional thing, or down to personal preference, I would happily turn it off to get more secure braking during the normal day-to-day, driving to work, school run, etc.

[smurf]

The dust is just a cosmetic issue as the alloys get dustier quicker than normal.

[dezufo]

1 hour ago, MicroMike said:

 

That's the exact feeling I have. 

 

Is it possible to turn the ABS off, I wonder? I'm not sure if that would cause more problems than it solves, but if it's an optional thing, or down to personal preference, I would happily turn it off to get more secure braking during the normal day-to-day, driving to work, school run, etc.

No the ABS can not be turned off, all modern cars have it, it is a safety measure that prevents the wheels locking up and skidding especially on wet roads. Change the brake fluid because it could be years old and past it's best, then check the pads supplied by EBC brake shop, the green ones are reportedly good, Your garage could get brake parts from Autodoc.com or Febibilstein or direct from Toyota, check in the link for part numbers, amayama.com

[MicroMike]

3 hours ago, dezufo said:

No the ABS can not be turned off, all modern cars have it, it is a safety measure that prevents the wheels locking up and skidding especially on wet roads. Change the brake fluid because it could be years old and past it's best, then check the pads supplied by EBC brake shop, the green ones are reportedly good, Your garage could get brake parts from Autodoc.com or Febibilstein or direct from Toyota, check in the link for part numbers, amayama.com

Thanks @dezufo that's very helpful indeed, but I didn't understand the last part of your post.

My garage said their usual parts supplier doesn't have parts for the Alphard. So do I direct my garage to use Autodoc.com, Febibilstein, Toyota or Amayama.com? 

 

Thank you!

[Rojie]

Have you considered getting OEM pads from Toyota Direct.

 

If they are the same as fitted on any other Toyota your local dealer should have them or be able to get them very quickly.

 

As has been mentioned above; the MOT is the acid test.

Pass that, as you must, and the rest is your 'feel' for the brakes and yyour personal preference.

[dezufo]

13 hours ago, MicroMike said:

Thanks @dezufo that's very helpful indeed, but I didn't understand the last part of your post.

My garage said their usual parts supplier doesn't have parts for the Alphard. So do I direct my garage to use Autodoc.com, Febibilstein, Toyota or Amayama.com? 

 

Thank you!

Some parts suppliers can get the parts but as it's an import it might not be on their system. If you or your garage use the amayama site for the part numbers then you can use them to cross reference after market pads etc from Febi or Autodoc or your local Toyota dealer. I have found it's easier and quicker to source the parts and get my local garage to fit them but some garages do not like fitting parts supplied by the customer. the link is for the front pads on a MNH10, part number; 04465-65021  https://www.amayama.com/en/genuine-catalogs/epc/toyota-japan/alphard/MNH10W/151860/chassis/4705

[MicroMike]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:01 PM, Rojie said:

Have you considered getting OEM pads from Toyota Direct.

 

If they are the same as fitted on any other Toyota your local dealer should have them or be able to get them very quickly.

 

As has been mentioned above; the MOT is the acid test.

Pass that, as you must, and the rest is your 'feel' for the brakes and yyour personal preference.

 

Thank you, but I'm not sure what other Toyota vehicles parts would be compatible with my Alphard?

 

The bloke at the garage is an experienced and friendly old guy, but he's definitely not used to working with imported cars. If I could make it simple for him (e.g. "John, you can use the brake pads from a Toyota Rav4 on the Alphard") it would make things much easier.