Rear Foglights - better integration

[starider]

From my interpretation there is no height restriction. The best double sided tape is the one which the trade use for fitting number plates. I agree with your comments, but having dealt with insurance assessors in the past they do seem to look for the smallest reasons for refusing claims. Not withstanding this " go for it".

[The Flower Man]

Hello all! If its ok to jump on to this subject being a new member and owner of an Alphard ?

I am in the same situation as you all with the fog light problem. Was great to hear that a wiring loom may be installed already!

my rear lights have been modified (not by me) and are completely clear/white lenses. It does have the red reflector markers in the bumper still which is a result.

If i was to loose a reverse light and use a red LED bulb in its place for a permanent fog light, extend the factory wiring loom into the boot hatch to operate the red LED leaving the other reverse light alone ,the question is .....

would i get a failed bulb warning light on the reverse light circuit because of lowering the resistance in the circuit?

If so, would measuring the resistance across one side and adding a resister to the existing reverse light circuit cure this problem if it was to happen?

my understanding of the DVLA mot requirements are that only one fog light center or offside mounted and one reverse light (before 2009) are needed.

if i do as above ,can anyone see a reason for an mot fail? 

Nice forum btw

[The Flower Man]

forgot to say , my Alphard is a 2008 but is a gen2 

[Rojie]

10 hours ago, starider said:

From my interpretation there is no height restriction. The best double sided tape is the one which the trade use for fitting number plates. I agree with your comments, but having dealt with insurance assessors in the past they do seem to look for the smallest reasons for refusing claims. Not withstanding this " go for it".

 

Interesting point about the Insurance Inspectors.

[Rojie]

10 hours ago, The Flower Man said:

Hello all! If its ok to jump on to this subject being a new member and owner of an Alphard ?

I am in the same situation as you all with the fog light problem. Was great to hear that a wiring loom may be installed already!

my rear lights have been modified (not by me) and are completely clear/white lenses. It does have the red reflector markers in the bumper still which is a result.

If i was to loose a reverse light and use a red LED bulb in its place for a permanent fog light, extend the factory wiring loom into the boot hatch to operate the red LED leaving the other reverse light alone ,the question is .....

would i get a failed bulb warning light on the reverse light circuit because of lowering the resistance in the circuit?

If so, would measuring the resistance across one side and adding a resister to the existing reverse light circuit cure this problem if it was to happen?

my understanding of the DVLA mot requirements are that only one fog light center or offside mounted and one reverse light (before 2009) are needed.

if i do as above ,can anyone see a reason for an mot fail? 

Nice forum btw

 

Welcome to the Forum,

 

You will need a 'Tell Tale' illuminated light within reach, and visible, from the driving position for the rear fog light.

Chris.ac is, or has, implemented / integrated his rear fog lights with the stalk control, as above.

[The Flower Man]

5 minutes ago, Rojie said:

 

Welcome to the Forum,

 

You will need a 'Tell Tale' illuminated light within reach, and visible, from the driving position for the rear fog light.

Chris.ac is, or has, implemented / integrated his rear fog lights with the stalk control, as above.

Thats great, thanks for that. Yes understood about the switch. i am planning to locate the switch in one of the blank positions on the right of the steering wheel but i would like to take the switch off the wiring loom feed for the stalk so i am on the factory wiring and illuminate the rear fog light indicator on the dash.

Is there a way of identifying these wires ie are they blanked off?

I have to remove the dials next week to convert from kms to mph as this hasn't been done and i don't want to use a chip or touch the clock readings at all so i might as well do the fog light properly while i am in there. 

[Rojie]

So, the saga continues, for those not already bored senseless by this.

 

There is a maximum height stipulated for reflectors, in fact there are several depending on other factors.

For an Alphard, my interpretation is, 900mm.

 

Reflectors, according to my reading, must carry certain approval marks.

The approval mark should incorporate "I" or "IA".

 

So my motorcycle stick on solution seems to be a non starter, although I will check if they carry the necessary markings.

 

The aformentioned dimensional requirements, as supplied by Starider, are correct.

So, yet again, I am back to Stariders approach of rear mudflaps with approved reflectors mounted on them.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Rojie
Correction of error

[starider]

Fitting mud flaps all round has certainly reduced the amount of "crudd" sprayed on the pristine underside of our Alphard. Hopefully the flaps plus the undersealing I've done will give some protection to the metalwork. Next year in the Autumn I will,as with all our vehicles spray the underside with oil. It really does work,my wife's Ford Connect Van is still immaculate underneath with no corrosion even after 14years.

Obviously great care is taken when spraying with oil to enure oil is not sprayed on sensitive parts such a brakes etc.

[starider]

Sorry if I seem to be obsessed with reflectors, I seem to be dogged with reflector problems,a couple of years ago I managed to crack the Connects L/H rear lamp lens. Bought a new one off fleabay[pattern make] a few months ago realised the white plastic in the reversing light lens had turned opaque so severely it needed replacing again. The new lens seemed of better quality until when I did a pre-MOT Test I realised the reflector didn't reflect! Luckily I hd some self adhesive rectangular ones, so fitted one each side on the bottom outer corner of each rear door. No problems for MOT at end of November

[Chris.ac]

On 12/28/2021 at 11:29 AM, The Flower Man said:

Thats great, thanks for that. Yes understood about the switch. i am planning to locate the switch in one of the blank positions on the right of the steering wheel but i would like to take the switch off the wiring loom feed for the stalk so i am on the factory wiring and illuminate the rear fog light indicator on the dash.

Is there a way of identifying these wires ie are they blanked off?

I have to remove the dials next week to convert from kms to mph as this hasn't been done and i don't want to use a chip or touch the clock readings at all so i might as well do the fog light properly while i am in there. 

 

I attach the wiring diagrams for the complete rear fog harness - you should be able to trace all the wires in the stalk socket, to the dashboard lights etc.

 

Rear fog wiring.pdf

[The Flower Man]

chris ac. you are a star. thanks for that. Its exactly what i was looking for!👍

[The Flower Man]

Does anyone have details or a part number for the rear fog light relay that fits the factory location at all? 

Also would it be useful for me to take photos while i do the speedo dial as i don't know if anyone has done this already? 

[Chris.ac]

I spent ages lookng for an approved reflector/led, I think I have found 2 solutions:

One, is to replace the tow hook plastic covers with either round foglights or reflectors from something like a 2007 Corolla

 

OR, I think the Valenti rear reflector/led lamp is actually 'safety' rated to act as an actual reflector in Japan.

 

 

Unfortunately, the Valenti LED/Reflector is almost £100, but would comply with MOT requirements - I have also seen 'retrofit' kit that uses the original reflector and adds leds to it, but I imagine some form of disassembly/reassembly is required.

 

The hunt continues!

[Chris.ac]

On 1/7/2022 at 1:06 PM, The Flower Man said:

Does anyone have details or a part number for the rear fog light relay that fits the factory location at all? 

Also would it be useful for me to take photos while i do the speedo dial as i don't know if anyone has done this already? 

I was lucky, one of our local mechanics was able to eyeball the relay image an popped one out of a wrecker car he had on the back of his towtruck, it is a common relay, there should be another identical one fitted near the same position that you should be able to take to a parts shop or breakers yard to get another one

[The Flower Man]

2 hours ago, Chris.ac said:

I was lucky, one of our local mechanics was able to eyeball the relay image an popped one out of a wrecker car he had on the back of his towtruck, it is a common relay, there should be another identical one fitted near the same position that you should be able to take to a parts shop or breakers yard to get another one

That's great. I will have a look in there tomorrow. I have relays from old cars from the past and may even have a match.

I really like the led reflector/fog lights that are replacing the factory reflectors in the bumper. These are the ones that are £100 ? Not each?😯

less wiring involved (easier) and keep two reverse lights. not that i can see anything out the back of mine ,even in the day light........

[stuartmc]

Somewhat confused and reread several times. Can someone confirm that having reflectors attached to mud flaps would be acceptable for MOT. Thanks.

[Rojie]

50 minutes ago, stuartmc said:

Somewhat confused and reread several times. Can someone confirm that having reflectors attached to mud flaps would be acceptable for MOT. Thanks.

 

Hi Stuart,

 

Starider is the expert on that topic, as that is the approach he has taken.

 

Chris.ac and I are trying to pursue a solution where we fit a unit into the bumper, as per the original reflectors.

The solution will incorporate rear reflectors, a legal requirement, and rear fog lights, a legal requirement.

There is no requirement that they are integrated together, but that approach offers a neat implementation.

 

The unit we are looking at could also be used for rear lights or brake lights. I can't remember whether it offers reversing lights.

 

As far as I am aware, reflectors on mud flaps do meet the MOT requirement.

 

You can read the requirements on DVLA, if you wish.

DVLA mention correct positioning, they do not mention mudflaps as I recall.

 

The beauty of the mud flap approach is there are no wiring complications.

 

 

[arthurj]

Just wading in. If I were to replace one of the reversing lights with a red fog bulb, would that be fine? For cars first registered after 2009 (mine’s 2012) the regs say there must be one or two reversing lights and they must work if present. Will disabling one to repurpose it as a fog light count as it being a non-functional reverse light and therefore a fail?

[Rojie]

8 hours ago, arthurj said:

Just wading in. If I were to replace one of the reversing lights with a red fog bulb, would that be fine? For cars first registered after 2009 (mine’s 2012) the regs say there must be one or two reversing lights and they must work if present. Will disabling one to repurpose it as a fog light count as it being a non-functional reverse light and therefore a fail?

Hi Arthur,

 

It may be OK but you will need to be messing with the wiring, won't you.

The fog light will still need a switch on the dash, and wiring to the tailgate

If you are comfortable with that OK.

From memory, it would need to be the offside reversing light

 

However, my guess is an MOT Inspector will expect a reversing light to be white, not red.

Having a red bulb in a white lens, in my opinion, is a fail.

 

ps I have not re read the regs before answering this.

 

 

[arthurj]

28 minutes ago, Rojie said:

It may be OK but you will need to be messing with the wiring, won't you.

The fog light will still need a switch on the dash, and wiring to the tailgate

If you are comfortable with that OK.

From memory, it would need to be the offside reversing light

 

However, my guess is an MOT Inspector will expect a reversing light to be white, not red.

Having a red bulb in a white lens, in my opinion, is a fail.

Oh yeah, the switch and wiring is budgeted for, but I think I’m currently due to get an extra fog light added on to or below the bumper. I’d rather do something more attractive but not willing to spend £100 on those dual reflector-fog lights.

[stuartmc]

Found these on Aliexpress if someone wants to risk £15 ish to try them Click

[Chris.ac]

3 hours ago, stuartmc said:

Found these on Aliexpress if someone wants to risk £15 ish to try them Click

No, these are not 'retroreflective' standard retroflective lenses are designed to reflect light 'back' in the direction it came from, upto 55degrees, whereas normal reflectors act more like mirrors, so the light reflects 'away' from the the angle it hits.

 

I bought similar to those you listed to test, they shine if hit with a torch square on, but at an angle, they are dark. The little dimples you see are just micro lenses to shine light out better from the LEDs

I attach an image from one of those types of fitment, in the image I stuck on a small retroreflector (the round thing) as you can see that is taken with a light source at about 45degrees off centre and it looks like the round thing is internally lit like a bulb, whereas there is only 'mirror' effect reflection in the rest of the lens

Edited January 13, 2022 by Chris.ac
typo

[Chris.ac]

4 hours ago, arthurj said:

Oh yeah, the switch and wiring is budgeted for, but I think I’m currently due to get an extra fog light added on to or below the bumper. I’d rather do something more attractive but not willing to spend £100 on those dual reflector-fog lights.

You could fit bulbs like these in to both reverse light sockets:

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32780015356.html

 

Red when you switch fogs on, will override and turn off red and switch on white, if you select reverse, and of course white if you select reverse and your fogs are off.

Have to run a positive wire up the rear frame and across down into rear boot/door panel, but alot more servicable and cheaper than the £100 lenses im currently trying to look at

 

Similar bulbs are available elsewhere, these one provide about 1000lumen of white (combined 2 bulbs) or around 400lumen when red

Edited January 13, 2022 by Chris.ac

[Rojie]

47 minutes ago, Chris.ac said:

No, these are not 'retroreflective' standard retroflective lenses are designed to reflect light 'back' in the direction it came from, upto 55degrees, whereas normal reflectors act more like mirrors, so the light reflects 'away' from the the angle it hits.

 

I bought similar to those you listed to test, they shine if hit with a torch square on, but at an angle, they are dark. The little dimples you see are just micro lenses to shine light out better from the LEDs

I attach an image from one of those types of fitment, in the image I stuck on a small retroreflector (the round thing) as you can see that is taken with a light source at about 45degrees off centre and it looks like the round thing is internally lit like a bulb, whereas there is only 'mirror' effect reflection in the rest of the lens

 

Hi Chris,

 

This looks promising functionally, if not rather ugly !

But does demonstrate why we are being so fussy.

 

I happened to have spoken with (my) MOT Inspector today.

 

He does check for retroreflectors.

 

His advice, for my situation, is to buy some small stick on motorcycle lenses.

There are no minimum sizes stipulated, so, the smaller the better !

 

I am really disappointed that the 'tidy' RDN Type 1 may not be acceptable; but motorcycle ones are OK.

 

He also stated he would not have a problem with reflectors mounted on mud flaps.

[arthurj]

55 minutes ago, Chris.ac said:

Red when you switch fogs on, will override and turn off red and switch on white, if you select reverse, and of course white if you select reverse and your fogs are off.

Hmm. Just checked the rules here 2021 guidelines and it says

 

Quote

Rear fog lamps may be combined with the rear position lamps. Front and rear fog lamps are permitted to operate independently of any other lamps or ignition systems. The function of a fog lamp must not be adversely affected by the operation of any other lamp.

It's a major fault if any other lamp interferes with the fog lamp and I assume the reversing lamp counts

 

Though maybe a straight-up replacement is fine, so there's only one fog and one reverse light.